ACNA: Theological Task Force on Holy Orders Will Not Find the Solution

The latest publicly viewable report from the Anglican Church in North America’s (ACNA) Task Force on Holy Orders says:

We remind the Council and Assembly that the Task Force is serving in an advisory capacity to the College of Bishops. It is not the purpose of the Task Force to find “the solution” to the ordination issues within the ACNA. The Task Force will provide the necessary scholarly work and advice needed for the College to make informed decisions about how the jurisdictions within the ACNA can move forward in their life together. Please continue to keep the Task Force in your prayers.

This is a far cry from the hope of some that this Task Force will role back women’s ordination (WO) in ACNA. It is more in line with what I have thought all along, see here. Of course, it is possible that the next Archbishop (Sutton?) could use the Task Force in line with a push for ecumenical relations with Rome and the Orthodox as a reason to phase WO out over time. It would require a change to the Constitution of ACNA however, and that seems unlikely to me.



Archbishop Wabukala’s Address, Part II

Archbishop Wabukala uses the “alones” in his definition of salvation, “Set against this dark backdrop, the gospel of grace alone through faith alone shines in all its glory.” It would be hard to imagine a more thoroughly Protestant statement then what Wabukala has offered. He goes on to praise the confessionalism of African missionaries versus the moralism that took over in England:

For many of us the writings of John Stott and J.I. Packer simply were normal Anglicanism and too many of us assumed that the rest of the Communion thought the same way! 

I must point out that the Keswick origins of the East African Revival involve a good deal of Semi-Pelagiansim and that element of theology is not missing from the current GAFCON churches. Having said that, Stott and Packer are in a completely different orbit and referencing them is encouraging to me.
Wabukala maintains his focus on sexual ethics when he says:

The root cause of our problems is that strand of Western Anglicanism which has never been able to shake off the moralistic tendencies of the seventeenth century. It has too often chosen to justify its existence by various forms of moralism, but the indifference to doctrine which goes with this mindset means that it has a persistent tendency to adopt the morality of the prevailing secular culture — and it is ironic that bishops who are called to be guardians of the faith are often the leaders and catalysts in this process.  

But it is here that I must fault him for not going far enough. Sexual ethics are not the only ethics the Bible talks about, and while he is correct on those matters, he does not mention the approval of murderers like Uhuru Kenyatta and Paul Kagame that Romans 1:32 says we are not to give. Many GAFCON bishops have said not a word against the murderous wickedness of their national, but have said a great deal about homosexuality. Unless this is corrected, GAFCON will lack credibility in its notional re-evangelization of the West.
Another unfortunate aspect of Wabukala’s presentation is his identification of women’s ordination as a second order issue:

Following the spirit of the Articles, we respect diversity on secondary matters and the GAFCON movement models this in the variety of traditions it embraces and the recognition of principled difference about the role of women in church leadership. However, on those matters which touch the central message of the Church’s mission we need to also follow the spirit of the Articles, reinforcing the great positives of the gospel by stating the necessary negatives, especially in an intellectual environment dominated by post modernist relativism where it is assumed that truth claims are merely preferences. 

Women’s ordination has not been a secondary matter at all. It has indeed been the leading edge of the attack on Scriptural authority from at least the 1960’s on in the West. As Patrick Reardon said:

I trust it will not be a matter of indifference to Torrance that our opposition to women’s ordination springs from a deeply held conviction that the practice itself is a grave act of disobedience and a first, but firm, step toward apostasy. In fact, this was the assessment explicitly asserted by C. S. Lewis several decades ago in a passage that is well known. Lewis argued that ordaining the male sex to minister at the Eucharist has to do with the “correct appearance” (“orthodoxy” in Greek), the proper iconography. Change that appearance, alter that icon, he reasoned, and in due time you are worshipping a different god. That is precisely what we are witnessing today in congregations that were still Christian back when C. S. Lewis spoke his mind. 

I see the matter to be every bit as serious as that tiny but notorious fourth-century iota that Athanasius would have died to keep out of the Creed. The adoption of female ordination is regarded by some of us as an implicit but definite challenge to the lordship of Christ and the finality of his word… 

As with many things related to GAFCON, we have a mixed bag. Wabukala’s helpful re-centering of doctrine on the Articles of Religion gives way to a capitulation on Biblical principles of ordination and a failure to confront the oppressive regimes of several GAFCON nations. 

GAFCON Bits and Bobs

I read a couple interesting reports from GAFCON today. The first is from this blog, which says:

1-My own Anglican tradition, Anglo-Catholicism, isn’t a major player at GAFCON. The Anglican Church of Nigeria is High Church, and conservative with the Prayer Book, but Evangelical Anglicanism seems to be almost universal. Indeed, there was a small workshop on reconciling Evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics on Monday, a fact to which much surprise was expressed by some delegates.
2- There is no agreed position on Women in Orders. Kenya ordains women. Nigeria does not. North America is still discerning this. Those of you who know me know my position.
3-Part of the East African Revival was holiness of life, particularly among clergy. One of the disciplines that clergy in this part of the world observe is complete abstinence from smoking and alcohol. Some of our delegations have observed this. Some have not.

There are three interesting take aways from that post:
[1] I think that in the USA the same balance of “evangelical” to “Anglo-Catholic” (broadly construed) numbers are true, and yet it seems like the majority of ACNA leaders are Anglo-Catholic. In other words, the leadership does not reflect the composition of the churches. That’s just my opinion, I certainly can’t prove it. On the global (GAFCON) level, this seems to not be the case.
[2] I really want to see who makes up the GAFCON commission that will be reviewing ACNA’s report on Holy Orders. This will become a vital subject next year.
[3] The East African Revival is certainly being talked up at GAFCON, but this gentlemen points out its positions on alcohol use which are indicative of its origins in the Keswick movement and Pietism. This is not a good template for Christendom. Also, the East African Revival did not stop the genocide in Rwanda, one of the most “Christian” countries on earth, at least on paper.
The second report comes from here, it was written by a female priest named Shari Hobby and says in part:

Highlight of the day for me was the clergy women’s dinner. Over 40 of us attended from  Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Madagascar, province of the Indian Ocean, US, and I’m forgetting someone!…I sat beside a woman from Uganda who pastors 10 congregations, walking between 4 and 10 miles to get to them from her home.  Amazing group of women, many of whom pastor churches while working in other professional jobs.  I am humbled and amazed in what they are experiencing for the sake of the gospel….Good time connecting with a woman priest and Canon from Rwanda who solely leads 5 services in 4 different languages every Sunday.

Anyone who thinks GAFCON will decisively resolve the issue of women’s ordination had better think again. 

ACNA’s Task Force on Holy Orders

The Anglican Church in North America has announced a phased process of considering Holy Orders as sort of a higher level project which at a lower level will address women’s ordination. The composition of the Task Force on Holy Orders and their presumptive positions on women’s ordination is as follows:

Rt. Rev. David Hicks, REC Diocese of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic – Against
Rt. Rev. Kevin Allen, Diocese of Cascadia – For
Mrs. Katherine Atwood, Diocese of Ft. Worth – Unknown
The Rev. Dr. Leslie Fairfield, Diocese in New England, Trinity Seminary (Ret.) – For
The Rev. Canon Mary Hays, Diocese of Pittsburgh – For
The Rev. Tobias Karlowicz, Diocese of Quincy – Against
The Rt. Rev. Eric Menees, Diocese of San Joaquin – Against

If you know differently about where these individuals stand, please leave a comment and let me know.
 The ACNA press release goes on to outline four more phases of this process. I haven’t seen any timeline for these phases, so I have no idea how long this process could take. I imagine it will take at least two years to get through all these phases, but I could be wrong.
The Task Force is supposed to report its findings out to something called the FCA International Theological Commission (ITC), which I have never heard of, but sounds like it was modeled on this Vatican Commission. Who sits on the ITC? I don’t know. It’s a good avenue for questioning to FCA authorities.
So, assume for a minute that a narrow majority recommends some restriction or elimination of women’s ordination – there would still be numerous gates to go through. The ITC could reject this report. If the ITC approves it, the College of Bishops could presumably table it or reject it. Over at Titus One Nine, a good flurry of comments ensued on this issue. The consensus of the comments seems to be that nothing much will happen. For example:

I would suspect that ACNA’s leadership knows exactly how the theological report (if fairly done) will come out.  Indeed, pretty much any minimally informed person will know how this report will come out:  there are good arguments pro and con, and there is no clear resolution.  Therefore, ACNA will continue its current practice as it is the best possible solution to a theologically incoherent problem.  In this way, the non-WO activists can be partially mollified, or at least, they can no longer complain about the lack of any theological study.  And at the same time, ACNA can continue on its current policy but on a stronger footing.

This seems likely to me given the makeup of ACNA and the practice of many of the Provinces that make up the FCA. I can envision an attempt to do what AMiA did, which is to attempt a Solomonic “Two Integrities” approach with different shell organizations at the top level for different priests. The question at that point will be whether groups like the REC and FiFNA can live with this as a permanent solution.

Bishop Morse on Women’s Ordination

In the miasma that is the women’s ordination discussion, it is good to see clarity once in awhile. In October of 2012 at a synod meeting for the Reformed Episcopal Church’s Diocese of the Central States, Bishop Daniel Morse addressed women’s ordination

Women’s ordination  continues to be a troublesome matter with respect to our continued partnership in ACNA. When people ask me if the REC is in danger  of accepting the ordination of women, I say when hell freezes over, not to put too fine a point on it. At the recent ACNA  meeting at Ridgecrest, NC a large number  of women in clerical collars were present,  many more than usual at those meetings, apparently because the word had gone out that the ordination  of women  was in jeopardy,  and so the troops were marshaled. The REC bishops have been trying to get the discussion of this on the agenda at previous ACNA bishops meetings,  but it has been delayed  and delayed. It occurred to me that the leadership  of ACNA is following the same procedure used in the Episcopal  Church-just put the debate off long enough until so many women are ordained  that it becomes  the accepted  practice. From what I have been told the ACNA bishops  are finally going  to have the discussion at our meeting in January, 2013.

Bravo for Bishop Morse for standing up for truth, even when it is unpopular!

PEAR USA on Women’s Ordination

The Proposed Charter of the new Missionary District says:

Section 3. Men and Women in Ministry

PEARUSA upholds the biblical teaching that both men and women are created in God’s image and called to service in his Kingdom. For this reason, PEARUSA is committed to promoting the ministry of women alongside men, both within and outside the church. At the same time, the Bible also teaches that God created men and women with distinct differences, and has given them different roles within his Kingdom. Within the Anglican Communion there is a diversity of opinion regarding the ordination of women. While the Anglican Province of Rwanda does ordain women as Presbyters, PEARUSA does not, nor does it consecrate women as Bishops, nor does it receive or license women to serve as Presbyters or Bishops.

Technically, AMiA held this same position, although it watered it down over time by creating various sub-jurisdictions and entities. This is a very encouraging step towards rolling back the errors inflicted on the Church in the Seventies.

Women’s Ordination

Lots of pixels are being spilled lately about women’s ordination, an issue of much relevance to the Anglican Communion. Lue-Yee Tsang asks about a Chalcedonian canon here, Alastair Roberts goes in depth here, here and here, and Matt Colvin discusses Junia here.

Interestingly, the Times Literary Supplement has also had a back and forth going on over the subject, originating in the September 23 review of Gary Macy’s book The Hidden History of Women’s Ordination. The review was written by Bernard Hamilton and says:

In this study of the status of women in the Western Church in the period c.400-1200, Gary Macy pays special attention to three groups: the episcopae or episcopiae, the presbyterae and the deaconesses.

There are only two secure references to episcopae (the female form of episcopus/bishop): a tomb inscription dating from c.300-600 commemorates “the venerable woman, episcopa Q”; Canon 14 of the Council of Tours of 567 enacts that “No crowd of women should follow a bishop who does not have an episcopia”; and a mosaic portrait of 817 in the San Zeno chapel at Santa Prassede in Rome is captioned Theodora episcopa, identified in an inscription as the mother of Pope Paschal I (817-24). The status of “Q” and of Theodora remains enigmatic, but Macey argues that the episcopiae mentioned by the Council of Tours were the wives of bishops who, with their husbands, had taken vows of celibacy while continuing to live together. Macey thinks that the same is true of presbyterae (the female form of presbyter): that they were priests’ wives who, with their husbands, had vowed to live together in continence. The evidence about deaconesses is unambiguous. Canon 15 of the Council of Chalcedon states: “A deaconess shall not be ordained until she is forty years old. If, having received the laying-on of hands, and having spent some time in her ministry she then marries, scorning the grace of God, she shall be anathematized together with her husband”. Deaconesses had some limited liturgical functions, but their most important work seems to have been to instruct women in the faith.

Macey points out that in the early medieval West, the term ordinare was used in its classical sense, meaning to institute someone in office, and stresses that in some pontificals it was used to designate a wide variety of ministries.

In addition to doorkeepers, lectors, exorcists, acolytes, subdeacons, deacons and priests, all of whom served the altar, emperors and empresses, kings and queens, abbots, abbesses and deaconesses were also described as ordained.

The ministries exercised by ordained women in the early Middle Ages are unlikely to seem very attractive to the modern proponents of women’s ordination, since there is no evidence that any of those women could celebrate the Eucharist or exercise other priestly functions – with one exception. Abbesses, and abbots who were not in priest’s orders, could hear the confessions of members of their communities. This monastic tradition of spiritual direction survived in the Western Church until the twelfth century, when it was assimilated to the sacrament of penance and reserved to priests. Macey argues that although the ministries that ordained women performed were different from those of the clergy who served the altar, deaconesses, abbesses (and, presumably, queens and empresses) enjoyed parity of status with the ordained male clergy.

After c.1050, the papally led reform movement was concerned to enforce clerical celibacy and to suppress simony in order to free the Church from the control of the lay nobility. This affected women because when clerical marriage was made illegal, clergy wives ceased to exist in the Latin Church. Deaconesses, widely regarded as being identical with abbesses, continued to be ordained, until the revival of the study of Aristotelian logic and of canon law in the Western schools led educated churchmen to develop a precise technical vocabulary: one consequence of this was that the term ordinatio became reserved for the clergy who served the altar, while the rites for instituting abbots and abbesses, deaconesses, kings and queens, emperors and empresses were described as blessings (benedictiones).

Macey argues that this change of name was very important, because ordination then ceased to mean institution in office and came to mean the conferring of spiritual powers.

I am not convinced that any significant change occurred, since the ordination rituals had always emphasized that powers were granted to the candidates commensurate with their ministries, and those liturgies did not change significantly in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Indeed, the form for the blessing of an abbess contained in the Rituale Romanum of Clement VIII (1592-1605) directs that the candidate should kneel before the bishop and say: “I [N], of the monastery of [N], who am about to be ordained abbess [ordinanda abbatissa] promise obedience to … “. The content of that rite had not changed: only its name.

Having restricted the use of the term ordination, theologians stated that women could not be ordained, because they had never held the offices described by the new definition of the word. Gary Macey argues that this ruling reflected the widely held view that women were inferior to men, but although some churchmen did hold that opinion, women did not occupy an inferior position in the Church after 1200.

The exponential growth of the cult of the Virgin Mary during the central Middle Ages, which emphasized that a woman had a central role in the divine economy of grace, had practical consequences, such as the foundation of the Order of Fontevrault, made up of double monasteries of monks and nuns, in which authority was vested in the abbess. Moreover, the church authorities recognized the prophetic office of a number of spiritually gifted women, such as Hildegard of Bingen, Elizabeth of Schönau, Bridget of Sweden, Catherine of Siena and Julian of Norwich, who exercised considerable influence. Although women religious no longer had ordained status, they all continued to enjoy a privileged clerical status: they, together with their often considerable estates, were exempt from secular jurisdiction and subject to the church courts alone.

This review prompted several letters to the editor, first one by Gary Macy himself:

Central to the argument of the book is that the definition of ordination changed radically in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, creating a new church organization centred on the priesthood and its power to consecrate the bread and wine. Before that shift, ordination was, as Hamilton points out, the institution of someone in a particular office, not the granting of a personal power. Ordained ministries other than the priesthood, therefore, could and did celebrate sacramental rites, including the Eucharist. Some of these were women. Professor Hamilton reads the book as if the only group capable of celebrating the Eucharist during this period were priests.

This error results in other misrepresentations.

When Hamilton asserts, “there is no evidence that any of these women could celebrate the Eucharist or exercise other priestly functions – with one exception”, he ignores my lengthy discussion of a number of sources that do claim that women served at the altar. From the fourth to the twelfth centuries, a series of laws forbidding bishops to continue to allow women to serve at the altar, hagiographical stories of abbesses who led liturgies, and survival of communion services performed by women suggest that two groups of women led liturgies: women who served with their husbands in the liturgies, and abbesses who performed sacramental functions for communities and for the surrounding villages. Given this evidence, Hamilton is again incorrect when he states that I argue ” that … the ministries that ordained women performed were different from those of the clergy who served at the altar”. They were often the same.

Hamilton rejects the argument that any substantial change in the role of women took place with the changing definition of ordination. His evidence is that the rituals for abbesses did not change. This example strikes to the heart of the argument of the book: that the change in the definition of ordination would necessarily change the meaning of the ritual even if the words remained the same. As I point out, the ritual for the ordination of a woman deacon or an abbess before the twelfth century was a true ordination to a clerical state that allowed them to exercise sacramental functions. The same ritual by the thirteenth century bestowed no ordination at all and did not give them sacramental functions.

Furthermore, the ordination ritual for women deacons was completely removed from the papal pontifical in the thirteenth century and no longer practised.

Finally, Professor Hamilton asserts that “women did not occupy an inferior position in the church after 1200”. He cites a growing devotion to the Virgin, the influence of certain powerful religious women, and the use of clerical courts by women religious. Again, this ignores significant evidence. By the thirteenth century, for example, in law, the testimony of women was disallowed because of their weak minds. In theology, women’s “matter” was incapable of receiving ordination because they were not the direct images of God that men were. In sum, before the thirteenth century religious women could be, and sometimes were, considered the intellectual, ministerial and legal equals of men partly at least because they could be ordained. That equality was impossible by the thirteenth century.

I should add that Gary Macey did not write this book. Gary Macy did. This may be a small point, but it is indicative of the lack of attention to detail prevalent throughout the review.

This was followed by a letter from John Wijngaards, a noted heterodox teacher on the subject:

Sir, – It would not surprise me if many readers of the TLS are left confused by the discussion between Bernard Hamilton, reviewer of The Hidden History of Women’s Ordination, and Gary Macy, its author (Letters, October 21). A wider view might be helpful.

The discussion is not about the East. In the Byzantine Church, part of the Catholic Church until 1054, women were sacramentally ordained deacons, just as the men were. We know the exact ordination rites used. Women deacons instructed catechumens, assisted at baptisms, took communion to the sick, and administered the last rites. Ecclesiastical legislation such as that under Emperor Justinian gave them full clerical status like their male colleagues. Not so in the West.

Apart from some exceptions, massive prejudice based on Roman culture effectively barred women from any ministry. Women could not hold public office. Women were declared intellectually inferior. They were not allowed to enter the sanctuary for fear of polluting its space by menstruation.

They were forbidden to sing in church choirs. These prejudices voiced by the Fathers of the Church and endorsed in local synods entered the Decree of Gratian in 1140 and then became part of the Corpus Iuris Canonici. Until 1916 this Church Law stated that women were not created in the image of God. It also forbade women to touch sacred vessels, read or preach in church or be members of pious associations. To claim that women “did not occupy an inferior position in the Church” as Hamilton does, simply beggars belief.

Gary Macy is a brave man to document the exceptions. Perhaps, here and there, he overstates his case. Evidence seems to indicate, for instance, that the Latin ordination rite for women deacons had already eroded by the eighth century. And abbesses who were ordained Sacerdos Maxima or Sacerdos Magna, while enjoying jurisdiction in the administration of parishes and even in forgiving sins, could not preside over the Eucharist. But that does not disprove the value of his book. While studying women’s involvement in the Western Church, I found that valuable testimonies have often been ignored, dismissed or even maliciously suppressed. The real complex truth needs to be fully uncovered.

And another letter from Bernard Hamilton:

Sir, – I read Gary Macy’s book with great attention, as I would any book which I was reviewing. The conclusions I reached are based on the detailed examples which he cites and I see no reason to modify them. I do not consider that the evidence which Macy produces is strong enough to support the case about the role of women in the early medieval Western Church which he wishes to make. I also consider that his description of the place of women in the Church in the later Middle Ages is highly misleading because it is based on a very selective range of sources.

I do, though, apologize unreservedly to Gary Macy for spelling his name wrongly.

Finally, a letter from R.I. Moore:

Sir, – It’s a bit rich of Bernard Hamilton to accuse Gary Macy of undue selectivity (Letters, October 28). The last paragraph of Hamilton’s review (September 23) offers the foundation of Fontevraud in 1100, housing both women and men, as an example of the improved status he claims the Church offered to women in the high Middle Ages. He might have added that several other of the religious orders that appeared around that time placed men and women on an equal footing, including most spectacularly the Premonstratensians.

But from the 1130s they were the objects of a strong reaction, led by those prominent champions of mariolatry, the Cistercians.

Fontevraud was too well connected to be affected, but elsewhere the women were removed from most of the double houses to ill-endowed “sister” foundations, most of which soon withered away. Many men and women, thinking this contrary to the apostolic ideal of their founders, took voluntarily or involuntarily to the roads, and were from the 1140s demonized as heretics and ruthlessly persecuted. Since theirs are among the valuable testimonies to which John Wijngaards refers that have been “ignored, dismissed or even maliciously suppressed” (Letters, October 28), we know little about them. But there is enough to justify a strong suspicion that they held just the views on women’s capacity to administer the sacraments that Macy suggests, and quite enough to confirm that Macy’s, not Hamilton’s, view of the direction in which the Church’s treatment of women was changing is correct.

Lots to chew on here.

AMiA Fracturing

Well, that didn’t take long. I have been reading the tea leaves about the trajectory of AMiA for a few years now, most recently with the last issue of Wave. Now, Anglican Unscripted reports that AMiA is cracking up over women’s ordination and Bishop Murphy’s apparent desire to rule as he sees fit. The video is below:


Essentially, the report says that there is some discord between the Church of Rwanda and AMiA, and that they are coming to terms of separation. Bishop Murphy wants to support women’s ordination (surprise, surprise) and appoint his own bishops without Rwanda being able to nix his appointments. The AMiA will pull out from Rwandan oversight and is seeking another Primate from another Global South church or Archbishop Kolini or some other option.

The video asks if AMiA all of the sudden doesn’t have an Archbishop sponsoring them what happens to them? They speculate that Chuck Murphy will keep some of them together and maybe they will come under ACNA. They also report discord among the bishops of AMiA. Some orthodox bishops want to leave AMiA and head to ACNA to maintain no women’s ordination.

So, Bishop Murphy can’t seem to stand oversight. If he wants women’s ordination so much, why doesn’t he simply merge into ACNA as it is? Well, that would mean breaking up the fiefdom right? And shame on Archbishop Kolini for supporting such nonsense. I confess I thought that women’s ordination wouldn’t mess up ACNA for another ten years or so, but it appears to be happening already. There is now a crying need for a diocese or two within ACNA that is totally opposed to women’s ordination. Anything less will produce further splits and the end of ACNA.

Past Posts on the Same Subject:

Here, here, here and here.

The Origins of Women’s Ordination in the Episcopal Church

So how did it all begin? Without going into great detail, we can look at the seventies and the illegal ordinations that happened at that time. The heretic James Pike had previously ordained a woman to the diaconate, but the ball really got rolling in 1974.

In the book “Anglican Communion in Crisis”, Miranda Hassett writes:
…women deputies were not accepted by General Convention until 1967. By this time the controversial liberal bishop James Pike had already ordained a woman as a deacon, an ordained role oriented toward service and without all the sacramental duties of the priesthood. With the encouragement of the women’s movement in the larger society, other breakthroughs followed quickly. The General Convention of 1970 accepted female deacons, and the 1976 Convention admitted women to the priesthood, following the unauthorized 1974 ordinations of eleven women as priests. The first Episcopal woman bishop, Barbara Harris, was consecrated in 1989.
In “A Brief History of the Episcopal Church”, David Lynn Holmes writes:
Nevertheless, in the summer of 1974, in Philadelphia’s Church of the Advocate, eleven women deacons were ordained to the priesthood by three Episcopal bishops. Two of the bishops were retired; the third had resigned as bishop of Pennsylvania earlier in the year. Neither the bishops, nor the deacons, nor the parish had authorization for the ordinations. In an emergency session, the House of Bishops declared the ordinations invalid and rebuked the ordainers.” (page 168)
Time magazine has articles on these ordinations here, here and here. And now, a mere three decades later, “conservatives” all over the place accept this practice, foisted upon the church by radicals and heretics, as perfectly fine and normal.